Tartışma:Nicolaus Copernicus

Mikolaj Kopernik? Nicolaus Copernicus?

Merhaba! Sorry for not writing in Turkish, but could somebody please explain why this article is called Mikolaj Kopernik, as in Polish? He was a Prussian who has published under the Latin name Nicolaus Copernicus in a German city. --Matthead 04:02, 6 Ocak 2009 (UTC)

• Hello,
• Although he is often called as "Kopernik" in short in Turkish literature, he is rarely addressed as "Mikolaj Kopernik", as you said, the Polish form of his name. While when referring to him in short "Kopernik" is preferred, when referring to him with his full name usually the Latin form, Nicolaus Copernicus is preferred. Normally, in Turkish Wikipedia we favour names which are more frequently used in Turkish literature. Hence, the name of this article must be Nicolaus Copernicus, as it is the more frequent form of the name in Turkish literature.
• Açıkçası arkadaş gibi ben de neden bu maddenin adı Mikolaj Kopernik bilmiyorum - Kopernik kısmının farkındaydım ama Mikolaj kısmına gözüm hiç kaymamıştı ^_^ Kopernik tüm yazılarında Latince ismini kullanmış birisi (nitekim o dönemde gelenek/trend buydu) ve bu sebeple, Polonyalılar dışında sanırım herkes ona Nicolaus diyor... İngilizlerde bu ismin İngilizce formu olsa da çevirmiyorlar; Latince formunu koruyorlar. Nitekim Türkçede de, salt soyadı olarak Kopernik çok yaygın olsa da tüm adı olarak Mikolaj Kopernik, Nicolaus Copernicus kadar yaygın değildir. Hatta internette google araması yaptığınızda (Mikolaj Kopernik) için: 2,130 sonuç veriyor (Türkçe dili aramasında - "mikolaj+kopernik"&btnG=Search&meta=lr%3Dlang_tr) ve çıkan sitelerin azımsanamayacak bir kısmı doğrudan içeriği bizden almış olan klonlar. Oysa, Nicolaus Copernicus ismini Türkçe dilinde aradığınızda 6,070 sonuç alıyorsunuz. Nitekim literatürde tam ismi olarak dediğim gibi Latince formu daha yaygındır; örneğin YKY'nin yayımladığı Copernicus'un ünlü eseri Gökcisimlerinin Dönüşleri Üzerine baskılarında da Nicolaus Copernicus ismi kullanılmıştır. Tüm bunlara dayanarak maddenin adının, VP:ADK gereğince en yaygın isme yani Nicolaus Copernicusa değişmesi gerekir. İnternette dolaşan ve Mikolaj Kopernik isminin şahsın isminin Türkçeleştirilmişi olduğunu savunan fikirler olduğunu bildiğimden tekrarlayayım: bu şahsın Polonya dilindeki ismidir ve şahsın isminin olası bir Türkçeleştirilmiş formuna/okunuşuna aslında oldukça uzaktır. Teşekkürler, iyi çalışmalar... - - noumenon Θ mesaj 03:44, 7 Ocak 2009 (UTC)

Ah, thanks, that is what I thought of. In German, "Kopernikus" was and is used quite often, but scientists and many other sources use the proper documented Latin spelling, that is why I have moved the German article (and the Alemannisch dialect one). The problem with Copernicus is that, when Poland was divided and disappeared from the map between 1772 to 1918, Polish writers in exile mis-used him and his Polonized name to fight against Prusya of the 19th century, claiming that he had opposed the Töton Şövalyeleri in the 16th century. Before, between and after two World Wars against Germany, writers in anti-German or pro-Polish countries echoed the Polish stance. Sadly, some Poles and Polish politicians are still rather chauvinistic, while Germans have become very defensive, even though there are good reasons to claim him as German - for example, it is documented that he spoke and wrote in the German dialect of the time and area, as he took part in politics in the two parts of Prussia. On the other hand, it is unknown whether he spoke some Polish, all we have is a list of place names he compiled. Even that the Borussus Mathematicus Torinenis studied in Cracow, then the Polish capital, does not support Polish claims, as the university and the city itself then had at least 30% Germans, and many scientists, clerics, merchants and artists were indisputably Germans. In a modern neutral biography, it should be said that Copernicus was born in a German-speaking region that had allied with the Polish king, that he studied in Italy, that he was influenced by old Arab and Greek sources, and that he published in Latin. Calling him Polish is oversimplification and should be avoided. For example, at Stanford, they write Thus the child of a German family was a subject of the Polish crown. --Matthead 06:04, 7 Ocak 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks for the detailed info ^_^ There're no claims in the text of this article about his ethnicity actually... I believe the Polish name of the article comes from a big misunderstanding on the part of Turkish publications and there are two reasons for that: first, some mistakenly take that his "original" name was Polish (the ethnicity problem!) and hence use the Polish version and secondly, some think that Polish version is actually a Turkish transcription of his Latin name's pronunciation... (yes I know that sounds weird!) a Turkish transcription actually would be much closer to the German counterpart (if I'm not mistaken, "Nikolaus Kopernikus" right?) than the "Mikolaj." We can actually directly change the name of the article, referencing naming policy, but I just want to make sure that it is the Latin form that is prevalent in scientific Turkish texts - hence I'm looking through some sources ^_^ - - noumenon Θ mesaj 06:19, 7 Ocak 2009 (UTC)

Yes, in German, the spelling with K was introduced, probably to make sure that the C are not pronounced like Z (the pronounciation of Cicero seems to be controversial). Besides, even the Turks are part of the equation: when Konstantinopolis was taken, Greeks had to evacuate to Italy, taking many old documents with them. This started the renaissance.--Matthead 09:28, 7 Ocak 2009 (UTC)

So, who will move the article? --Matthead 11:53, 15 Ocak 2009 (UTC)

Well, it was me then. :-) --Matthead 21:45, 8 Şubat 2009 (UTC)